PP 196: Stepping Outside Our Comfort Zone with Andy Molinsky

Website: https://www.andymolinsky.com/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/andymolinsky
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andymolinsky
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MolinskyAndy
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQg810joeAIE2skXcBk2M8Q

Kim Sutton: Welcome back to another episode of positive productivity. I’m so happy that you’re here to join us today and I am thrilled to welcome Come back our guests, Andy Molinsky. Andy and I tried recording about a month ago and only got one track. But as you know, on the positive productivity podcast, it’s not about perfection. Andy is a professor at Brandeis University and the author of reach and global dexterity. Andy, welcome to the show. I’m so happy to be chatting with you again,

Andy Molinsky: Thanks for having me. I enjoyed chatting with you the first time and I’m excited to do it again.

Kim Sutton: It was awesome. Yeah. And sometimes the second recordings are really just making way and paving the way for something bigger and better. So I can’t wait to see where this chat takes us. Because the listeners haven’t had the the honor through my podcasts, at least of hearing who you are, would you mind giving an introduction and telling more about what you do and now you got to where you are now?

Andy Molinsky: Sure. I guess I kind of wear two hats. I’m a professor at Brandeis University in Boston, in the International Business School and also in the psychology department. So I have the whole academic career.

I write, you know, academic papers, and I teach and so on, but about, gosh, I might want to say 10 years ago, maybe maybe eight years ago or so, I started to really want to try to branch out beyond, you know, just speaking to other academics and professors. And so I started writing for popular audiences.

Andy Molinsky: And I wrote my first book, global dexterity about adapting and adjusting behavior across cultures. I started writing for the Harvard Business Review. I have a column at ink.com. I write for Psychology Today, I wrote my second book, which came out this year, which is called reach about how to step outside your comfort zone in general in life, why it’s hard, how we avoid it and what you can do about it. And I have started working with individuals and in companies and it’s just been really fun to kind of stretch myself and try to reach a much broader audience. So I guess I mentioned two hats. That that’s my second hat. How many hats Do you think you wear? I think just to do professional ones.

Kim Sutton: Okay, yeah, that’s actually what I was gonna follow up with. I was gonna say, Andy, there’s no way you only wear two hats. I feel like some days I’m, I remember there was a children’s book when I was growing up, but I had to find it for my kids about this guy who’s I think he’s trying to sell hats. I know I’m very descriptive audience having like 10,000 hats on and Sundays, that’s just what it feels like as a mom as a business owner.

But that can actually very much lead into the topic of your book and about reaching outside of the comfort zone because I know one of the biggest things I had to do was reach out and build my team and trust team members to do the work that I was always doing. But also even just getting behind the microphone was scary as you know what, what have been some of the biggest steps that you’ve taken ever and and stepping outside of your comfort zone and what type of results have you seen? I mean, I know you wrote your books. Can you provide any other examples?

Andy Molinsky: Sure, yeah. No, I think it’s, it’s been, you know, my whole life. I’ve noticed, I don’t think I’m unusual in this way. But I’m definitely reflective about my own experience. And I always, you know, always kind of curious about the challenges that I face and what I can do about it. And, you know, I think, you know, every phase I face that I remember, in college I was, I was really scared to participate in class, I would sit in the back of the room with my heart kind of feeling like it was beating out of my chest, my face turning red, you know, I might put up my hand for a second, but then, you know, put it back down and then the conversation will kind of go by me and I just get frustrated that oh, I, you know, again, it happened. I couldn’t get up the courage and, you know, that’s just a little example. After college. I remember whether it was networking or public speaking. I remember as is I got a PhD. So part of the training was was going to college Francis and speaking in public, and I remember being really nervous speaking in public and then and then of course, teaching in front of, you know, 4050 people, you know, that’s a real performance. It’s of course, it’s educational, but it’s also a performance and that just really scared man, I used to write out my talks, my speeches and like, literally read from a piece of paper. And so that that was like a major crutch I had and then at some point, I decided that, you know, I was looking around and not a lot of people were doing that. So I said, You know what, I gotta ditch these notes. And then that was outside my comfort zone. So just at every phase, you know, it’s it’s something that really, I’ve struggled with, but, but it hasn’t stopped me. You know what I mean? So so that’s what reaches about my book. It’s about, you know, how to understand what’s holding you back what your pain points are, in any situation where you’re considering stepping outside your comfort zone, how you might be avoiding it, and we all do you know, and then we can do about it.

Kim Sutton: What do you think are some of the biggest things that are holding people back from stepping outside of the comfort zone, do you think it’s it? Is that fear of the unknown? Or do you think it’s a pure comfortableness with where they are now? Or a mix of both or something completely different?

Andy Molinsky: Well, I think the fear of the unknown in the fear of something that’s uncertain, is is is a big fear for people. Oftentimes, though, it’s it’s not completely unknown, right? So if you’re considering if your situation you’re thinking about is networking, or giving a speech, or making small talk with someone you don’t know and so on, it’s probably not unknown, you’ve probably tried it or you have a decent idea about it, but it but it still might be terrifying for a variety of reasons. And that’s, that’s what I kind of dug into in the book. And I found I found five different kind of core. I call them psychological challenges or roadblocks that people experience stepping outside of their comfort zone. And, you know, these might resonate with people listening. So for example, Authenticity, like I’m afraid, I’m afraid I won’t feel like myself. that this isn’t me. Feel like an imposter doing this, you know, speaking in front of a group of people or I don’t know, you know, I spoke to a lot of entrepreneurs as part of my, as part of my research, you know, putting on my grown up voice speaking to venture capitalists trying to trying to raise money, whatever it might be. So authenticity is a big challenge. Another one is likeability. The worry that people won’t like this version of me Remember, you’re stepping outside your comfort zone. This isn’t your typical way of acting What if people hate you if you act more assertively than than you usually do if you really speak your mind for example that that’s a real worry people have another one is competence What if you look like a fool giving a public speech or whatever it might be? Or you know, you’re afraid you can’t do it well, and you’re also afraid others can see that you can’t do it well, so there’s like a public and a private side to that one. I also found resentment among some people now logically, people get it you know, when in Rome act like the Romans, I guess, you know, like, you know, in a certain situation, you might know that certain behaviors were fired, let’s say but but maybe you feel resentful that you have to do that, you know, why can’t you just be yourself? You know, emotionally you’re thinking, Well, you know, why can’t you be yourself? I actually talked to a lot of, of introverts who felt that and who feel that in the you know, the the American workplace for better for worse is really, you know, kind of tilted towards people who are extroverted and what if you’re not what if it What if it’s really uncomfortable for you to, I don’t know, make small talk and chit chat and schmooze with your boss and talk about last night’s game or whatever by the water cooler and, and that’s really hard for you but then you notice that the people who can do that are the ones who are getting the assignments, the ones who are getting kind of the preferential treatment and that’s like deeply frustrating to you that you have to step outside your comfort zone. When Why can’t the quality of work matter you know, so there are variety of these these pain points that you can experience, you know, either in anticipation of doing something or even in the moment, but often in anticipation In those, those pain points if there’s door number one, which is you know what I’m going to give this a try in door number two is, I think I’m gonna avoid this. No, that can push you to door number two.

One of the biggest lessons that I learned from my parents growing up and there were so many, but one of the ones that resonates with me still today was the worst thing. The worst response that you can hear back is no. So especially when I was starting the podcast and putting out inquiries to get people on the show. I kept that in my mind. The worst thing that anybody can say is no. So why wouldn’t I even try? And when I started the podcast, I was so afraid of getting on stage because I thought I would chip which is so funny because I wasn’t at all concerned about forgetting my lines. And now that has totally morphed itself. I am an introvert Andy I might be behind the microphone every single day, but I am an introvert. So now my concern is not about tripping. It is about forgetting I was going to say, but I think that getting used to being behind the microphone on the podcasting side, and I’ve shared with you, you know, there will be bloopers I’ve shared with listeners, the blooper reels, that was just part of me. And that wraps right up into what you were saying about being authentic. If I stumble over my words now, and I’m on stage, I’m going to have a little bit of fun with it, you know, add this to the blooper reel.

about it, I completely agree with you, especially with, you know, some public speaking, it’s, it’s really important to be authentic, you know, for a variety of reasons. First of all, you’ll feel more natural, you’ll feel more comfortable and in some ways, you’ll be your best and most natural self. And the other thing is that you’re so much more relate. I mean, you you in particular, yes, but but anyone is so much more relatable and more human, when you kind of show your true self. And that’s that’s going to be more effective in whatever you’re trying to accomplish. Right. If you’re trying if you’re accomplished trying to accomplish, I don’t know, if you’re trying to To move and inspire people, if you’re trying to convince people, whatever your kind of goal is about whatever you’re doing, you’re I think you’re gonna be better at achieving your goal if you’re authentic.

Kim Sutton: I don’t remember if we talked about it the first time we were doing this, or attempting to record I should say, but I know listeners have heard me chat with other guests about it is how I’ve been resisting getting in front of the camera, like doing live Facebook videos or getting on YouTube. And for the longest time, it was about not wanting to show whatever kid clutter is around here. Or the fact that I didn’t have my hair and makeup done.

Listeners, I’m still struggling with that. We can’t do everything well. No, we just can’t do everything in the day. I was gonna say we can try but where’s the fun in that that’s just gonna be a lot of stress. One of these days though, I will turn on the camera and push record. What is your best suggestion and as far as tackling the comfort zone or the Fear of stepping outside of the comfort zone.

Andy Molinsky: Yeah, no, that’s a I love the idea of thinking through an example like that, because it’s, it’s exactly like those very, like real and in small sized, you know, challenges that people have. It’s not it’s not minimizing the challenge that it is for you to do this, but it’s not, we’re not talking about like giving a TED talk or we’re not talking about, you know, I don’t know, pitching a $2 billion business or something. We’re talking about pressing record on a video chat or on a Facebook Live or something. And that’s it. That’s like the everyday challenge that so many people have so glad you mentioned that. What I found in my in my work in my research, I talked to a lot of people and I also work one on one with people and I’m actually in the middle of finalizing an online course my first online course helping people step outside their, their their comfort zones, but what I have found is that there are three key resources or tools or if you want to Call them. The first is conviction, that deep sense of purpose. So in your case, why is it important for you to do that? Why did you know why? Why does that matter for you to go to Video? Is it going to further your professional career and your professional development? Is it gonna make an even more sort of intimate positive connection, lasting human connection with your listeners? And is that something that’s important and meaningful for you because you care about your listeners, you care about your audience, you care about making an impact, and that this is a sort of an enhanced way to do that. And so that that it that despite the fact that it’s hard, it’s, you know, it’s really worth it. Or maybe it’s personal maybe, maybe you want to be a role model for your kids and you’re coaxing them to get outside their comfort zones and you know, in an age appropriate way, and this is now your challenge and in Wow, wouldn’t it be cool if mom was able to do this and wouldn’t my kids be proud of me and Would I be a great role model? You know, I’m not sort of forcing that on you, I’m just saying that it can be sometimes professional, sometimes could be personal could be a combination, but whatever it is for you, or for anyone listening in any situation, find that deep sense of purpose, find that conviction in use it so that’s, that’s, that’s a suggestion or tool,

I’m happy that you brought up the deep sense of purpose, because that initial drive for me to do live videos was quote, because everybody else is doing it. And then I realized number one, no, not everybody else is doing it. And number two, if everybody else jumped off a bridge, that doesn’t mean I would do it. So I needed to find the deeper reason and and for me, it was it was that connection, and it was being more transparent and there may be a mess around here, but people need to know it’s okay. We’re not going to positive productivity is not about perfection. We are all perfectly imperfect.

And how many people out there do you think also have a mess in their

eye? 95% of the population, I would have to think it might just be sucked under their bed at the moment, but yeah,

well and you know, what they say is, you know, if you’ve got a bunch of kids and in you have a neat house, super, super neat house, you know? Well, you know, that’s that’s great. But but but it’s completely understandable that you that you don’t because you’re, the limited time you have is the time you’re spending with your kids as opposed to cleaning. You know that I’ve heard that before. And maybe that’s a rationalization.

That is totally true. But I also have the rationalization that as soon as I clean, then the tornado is just going to follow right after me. So Oh, no. So I would rather just that’s

a whole that’s a whole other. That’s a whole nother Yes,

you know,

ROI right there.

So yeah, just maybe, and maybe that is a whole nother reason to start it. You talk about you know, best use of time and forget about and that’s another thing here in May It isn’t really that important. No, because just like he just asked me how much of the population, women I’m going to say for this specific example, actually do work at home with a full face and makeup and hair every day. I would have to think, listeners, I would love if you would chime in at thekimsutton.com/pp196. And but Andy, and I know if you really do well, I don’t know if Andy cares as much about this question as I do. But let me know if you do put on your hair and makeup in the morning every day before you begin work. I’m just curious.

Andy Molinsky: I have I have a daughter and a wife. So I’m at least familiar, you know.

Yeah. I mean, I do understand, you know, but that’s also about stepping outside the comfort zone. I remember when I was working in my last corporate job. You already brought up Andy about introverts in the work in the workplace. I swear that the Open Office plan was created purely for extroverts it is there’s nothing more uncomfortable And then be sitting in an open office plan. Low walls, I can see the person across from me. Anytime I look up, I can hear every single phone conversation. Talk about uncomfortable. I remember the first time I ever walked in without makeup off just because I didn’t feel like wearing makeup to work that day. And a lot of people won’t do that. Because they feel like they a lot of women feel like they have to have their quote face on, but it’s not really their face. I know I’m getting into a whole nother deep conversation there.

No, but this this actually kind of goes to my point number two, it’s actually a good segue like the so I talked about conviction. The second kind of tool that I found was what I call customization and this was this was really powerful. You know, I imagine a lot of people out there, you know, where I’m from here in Boston, Massachusetts, we we have a lot of Dunkin Donuts and people go customize their coffee, you know, they get their squirt of caramel or spinning whipped cream or whatever it is and it This idea of customization is is everywhere, you know, making it fit just right for you. And what I found it was so interesting I found from talking with people and from working with people, that it was very powerful that you could kind of tweak or customize your own version of stepping outside your comfort zone. So you know, that might be the language you use, it might be props that you bring, it might be the setting you construct, it might be the timing of a situation. So in your case with with, with with going to video, is there a time of day that suits you better? Is there a way that you can construct a setting or a particular spot at home that works best for you? Is there a simple way that you can sort of I don’t know show a little bit of the clutter as you said because maybe there actually some benefit to showing a little the clutter because because it humanizes the situation but at the same time, you know, is there a spot you can construct for yourself where you’ll feel, I don’t know whatever it is for you that most most most comfortable and most confident you know physically like I know someone who does a lot of video and he creates I think he has like he must have I’ve ever been to his his apartment or his house or wherever he lives but I see that he’s got like a it’s kinda like a gray screen that he has behind him and you know who knows what’s behind the screen but he has this gray screen and and all you see is that gray screen and he’s got some lights and I you know, he has these lights that you use for photography, you’ve probably seen like white lights and sort of those those lights on the corner if you’ve ever seen like a professional photo shoot, and he clearly has those because I can see because the lighting is fantastic. But you know what, when I was constructing my online course I looked into this those lights are not expensive. You can find those on Amazon for not that much. Yeah, and and you can get you get a couple of lights construct a little situate a little scene, or maybe that doesn’t matter to you, for instance for me that that doesn’t really matter. I do a video. I have a video, podcast. I don’t know if it’s a podcast at videocast right interview, kind of thought leaders, and so on on video, and I just kind of do it wherever. But but for other people, it’s it’s quite quite important. But my point here is that you can customize like, sometimes you feel powerless in a situation outside your comfort zone but you have more power than you think to kind of tweak it to make it work for you. I’ll just tell you one quick story about this not not about your situation, but someone who read my book reach, emailed me and said, You know, I love that idea of customization because it you know, it helped me so much she was afraid of she was an introvert and actually quite shy, and had a hard time making small talk. It’s social kind of gatherings and get togethers and she had this epiphany after reading the section of my book on customization, that what if she brought a prop to social, you know, get togethers, and in this case, her her prop was a selfie stick and what if that actually helped her make conversation and it was Amazing. She said she, she had the selfie stick and people would ask her what it was. And all of a sudden, by the way, you’re noticing that that’s more conversation that she had before. She would say, Oh, it’s a selfie stick. That’s a Oh, cool. How does that work? Because, you know, most people have heard of selfie stick, but they maybe don’t know what it looks like or how to use it. She would then say, Oh, yeah, let me see your, let me see your cell phone. And then all of a sudden, they’re having this interaction. They’re engaging, they’re taking a photo, maybe even sharing email and so on. And so it totally changed her experience. And that’s just one little example.

Kim Sutton: I love that. I remember chatting about this the first time around and and thinking how awesome that was. But I never I had to think about a prop. And are you an introvert or an extrovert?

Andy Molinsky: I think you know, it’s interesting. I always thought I was more extroverted. But I think I’m, I’ve taken various personality tests just for fun, and I usually come out right in the middle, actually, you know, right in the middle, and I think that’s probably true. You know, somewhere somewhere in the middle.

If you are going to a networking event tonight. Do you have a You would take

so it’s different for me like you know, I guess it would depend on the context you know when it depends on your stage and in your career when I was much younger I was terrified but now I’m you know much more kind of I guess in my in my role or whatever more senior so it’s it’s not as uncomfortable for me but if Gosh, if I were to bring a prop to a networking event, I’m not sure I used to. I’ll tell you another one I used to bring when I did public speaking and I was very uncomfortable much earlier in my career. I would wear a special ring I might have told you about this the first time I forget it was a it was a ring that the stone in the ring was was a stone that my great uncle had found in world war two on the beaches of South Pacific when he was in the Navy. And he had it made into a ring that is a cool read. And I was admired it and eventually I inherited it and it always kind of meant courage to me because because of how he acquired the stone and I would wear that ring when I went to public Like speaking early on, every single time I would wear it, because it’s sort of had that little teeny boost of courage for me. And it didn’t like massively transformed my experience. But it was like a little secret that I had and a little feeling I had when I look at it in that, that little boost helped me. So that’s an example that’s a prop.

I love that actually, you just, you just helped me with my Prop, thank you. But I’ve had this little fish coin for about the last seven years. It is directly related to my faith. But on the back it says Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord Jeremiah 17. Seven and I carried it around for probably the first year that I had it everywhere I went. And let me tell you listeners, things in my house that are small like this, do not usually last the test of time in my wedding band and my engagement ring around my finger because I don’t take them off. But if I did take them off, I can guarantee you that two little girls would quickly find a new home for them. So the fact that I actually still have this coin And I was actually just looking at it yesterday. And just having that in my hand, if I was up on stage it I know it would give me that little boost of confidence. You know? Yeah, there you go. I have one last question for you. Let’s say you were 14 a freshman in high school. Again, I know very difficult time for a lot of us. But you had the opportunity to speak to a whole bunch of shy kids. Is there any one specific piece of advice that you would give them?

Andy Molinsky: I… You know, gosh, it’s a really hard question.

You know, I want… I would want a 14 year old to try to try to learn to be comfortable in their own skin. You know, that that I think is a really important thing for for teenagers. And it’s also a really hard thing. And I don’t know I have a 13 year old so I don’t, I don’t know what my piece of advice would be.

Andy Molinsky: I’ll tell you what my piece of advice to parents would be though, would be to really get to know your kid. To try to really understand your kid and to try to not, you know, impose your own your own wishes, your own dreams, your own preferences on your kid, but really get to know to get to know that kid and and hopefully, have your kid know that you’re trying to get to know them. And I think that that that’s kind of the key leverage point I think as opposed to just the I don’t think they’d Listen to me anyways, if I could talk to a 14 year old

Kim Sutton: Andy, I know that I’ve seen all the difference there, actually, with just my own kids, getting to know them and they can talk to me about anything and I do see how it has impacted, maybe not impacted, but I can see the difference in how they act in school versus how I acted or how their dad acted. I sometimes wonder how they can be my kids.

Andy Molinsky: Your kids do surprise you totally.

If they were here every second, they would be surprised to me every second has been an awesome chat. Encore chat for the two of us and I’m so thankful You came back and give it another shot with my technology issues. So thank you.

Andy Molinsky: I, thanks for having me back. I really enjoyed it the first time and I did this time and you know, it’s really really fun funny.

Can you share with listeners where they can find you online and connect and get to know more about you?

Andy Molinsky: Sure. Yeah, I have a website. It’s www dot AndyMolinsky.com and I’ve got lotsa, you know articles. And so I write as I mentioned before for the Harvard Business Review and Psychology Today and inc.com. And I’ve got all sorts of free articles and videos and quizzes and all sorts of stuff on there. It was kind of the website that I kind of built it to be the kind of place I would want to visit so in all my social is there to like, you know, LinkedIn and Facebook and Twitter and my email as well.

Andy Molinsky: So I’d love to hear from people and I also have a newsletter that I put out and I try to put some of my very best stuff in there and, you know, feel free to sign up and and yeah, I love to connect with people to talk about stepping outside the comfort zone.

Kim Sutton: I wasn’t planning on keeping on going. But I love how you said, you know, you’re building the website that you would want to go to. Yeah, that’s something that a lot of people don’t because they’re looking at everything else well, and circling back to what I said earlier, they build a site because it’s what everybody else is building, and they model the example.

Listeners do what resonates with you and what you would want to visit and I guarantee and I’m sure Andy feels the same way that there will be other people who resonate it or resonate with it just that much more.

Andy Molinsky: Absolutely.

Kim Sutton: Andy, do you have a last piece of advice or a golden nugget that you can offer to listeners before we wrap this up?

Andy Molinsky: I… You know, I think about comfort zones stepping outside your comfort zone. It’s not rocket science. It’s also not as easy as just saying, Oh, yeah, I’m going to take the leap right, it we all we all know that but it’s not rocket science either. And that’s why I wrote this book. And that’s why I do the work I do to try to give people a real sensible evidence based in other words from research but sensible roadmap for for for, you know, developing the country. And capacity to do it so that that would be my parting parting advice.