PP 182: Becoming A Student of Life with CJ Grace

Website:  https://www.adultererswife.com
Huffington Post:  https://www.huffingtonpost.com/author/c-j-grace

Kim Sutton: Welcome back to another episode of positive productivity. This is your host Kim Sutton and I am thrilled to have you here listening today. I’m also thrilled to introduce our guest CJ Grace.

CJ is an author, journalist and a student of life’s absurdities. CJ, welcome.

CJ Grace: Hi, thank you so much for having me on the show today, Kim.

Kim Sutton: Oh, I’m thrilled to have you here. I know you have an amazing story and I can’t wait to have you share it with the listeners. So with that said, would you mind jumping in and sharing a bit about your background so that the listeners know more about you?

CJ Grace: Well, I am the author of The Adulterer’s Wife: How to Thrive Whether You Stay or Not, which I have to say was based on life experience and on a lot of interviews with other women and men too. And I’ve been involved in small businesses for much of my life. And I was always working for somebody else working for the BBC as a journalist working for China Radio International, as a journalist advisor, working with my husband on his material. And now it is absolutely fantastic to be working on my own stuff. I love it.

Kim Sutton: Okay, I can’t help this. I’m sorry, CJ, but I know this is a positive productivity podcasts where bloopers just happen. But when you say the BBC, all I could think about is that poor man sitting at his desk when the two kids come in while he’s broadcasting? What went through your head when you saw that?

(Transcription still being cleaned up. Thanks for checking it out!)

CJ Grace: Well, you know, I don’t know what story you’re talking about, because I worked in the BBC. Battling Stone Age day. Okay, I was I was working back in the Stone Age days before computers before nonlinear editing that you can do on your computer. I did cut and splice, I carried a big heavy, you had tape recorder with me to interview people and interviewed all kinds of folks ranging from Margaret Thatcher to somebody who had eaten the contents of a bicycle. They actually ate a bicycle that was

during my interviews.

So it was an amazing job to have. I really enjoyed it. But then I moved to the United States from England, to be with my, my husband, from whom I’m now separated. But I was very glad that I had that experience because working as a journalist for the BBC, in those days, they trained you and I learned how to interview people. And the lovely thing about that is that it means that wherever you go in life, you can engage with Folks, you can find out about this stories. And it’s fascinating. It’s fascinating to be able to do that. And so when I went through my own challenges,

I found, can I interrupt you just for a second, because you may not be the only person who doesn’t know at all what I’m talking about listeners, we are having this chat in 2017 in the fall of 2017, and I don’t usually date but this past spring or summer, there was a video that went viral on social media, there was a BBC reporter who was live on air, working from his home office, and I think he was reporting actually on something going on in the Middle East, a very serious topic. And all of a sudden, in the back corner of his office, you see a little toddler walk in, and right after her there was an infant that came in, in the Walker.

You have to laugh I didn’t see that. I’m gonna have to look it out because

I’ll put it in the show notes, but it goes around full circle to you, student of life’s absurdities. And that’s true. And

I remember when I was working in the BBC, there was a wonderful set of recordings of all kinds of bloopers and I know you love bloopers and one of the most common ones was people just bursting into fits of laughter. Because you miss say something and then you realize how funny it is that you’ve said that or something weird happens. I remember for example, I was doing an interview about a Sikh festival in Britain. And there is a religious book in the Sikh religion called, I believe, the holy ghost hunter. And when I heard that, it sounded to me like the holy grantor, you know, somebody that grunts and I shouldn’t have laughed, but I had a very hard time keeping a straight face and continuing that interview. Because it just seems so funny. We were having this very serious interview about you know, the, this religion and this festival that was happening, and then the holy grounds And you think, Oh my god, that sounds so ridiculous. And you shouldn’t laugh, but you do. So, I have to say that these things always happen. There’s always something there that makes you laugh and what I find having gone through finding out my husband was unfaithful, which was the background to me writing the book, adulterous wife how to thrive, whether you stay or not. And then I’m working on a second book, which is entitled hotel chemo, learning to laugh through breast cancer and infidelity. Now, how would you laugh about certain subjects like going through chemo, like planning for your funeral, which I actually have written about in that book, but it’s amazing how much humor there is an all of this stuff, if you if you look for it, and that’s what you need to dig you out of any kind of hole of feeling really down really depressed with what’s going on or feeling overloaded. If you see the humor in life and take a little step back. I think that allows you to function more productively, really, and to do a better job and to be happier and not just get ground down by what happens in life,

Kim Sutton: You’ve got me thinking now about my days being raised Catholic, because I remember getting the evil eye from my mother, because I would my best friend went to the same church as I did. And we would, I would purposely guide my mom to sit next to her and her family so that we could sit next to each other and like jab each other with our elbows off her service to keep each other awake. But during the homily, we would often just break out in fits of giggles for no reason. Yeah.

CJ Grace: Okay, so I pick up though, and it’s nerves You know, sometimes it is a symptom of of nervousness, because you know, you shouldn’t do it. So you do.

Oh, yeah, in the holy grunter or one, that would have been totally me because that’s what I would have seen on it or heard out of it too. And I guess, I don’t know how I would have gotten through that one. I can barely get through one. I know let me do it. Be honest. I can barely get through. Five minutes on my On show without a blooper, so yeah. Now let’s go back, you moved to the states to be with your husband, and you got into his business. What happened then? And how did your journey? How is your journey gone? since then?

Well, we had a business together. And some of it involved book publishing, which was something I was used to because my dad had a small publishing company, and I learned from him about all kinds of things in particular, writing off every expense you possibly could, and also how to treat employees with kindness and respect. One thing that really stuck in my mind about him was that he had somebody come for interview for a job. And it was during a recession in Britain and it when unemployment was pretty high. And this man who was I believe, in Oxford, graduate in English, burst into tears during the interview because he found it so hard to get work. And my father rather than thinking, Oh, I don’t want something like that. He thought, Oh, what a shame. How’s it how terrible. I’m going to employ him. So he employed this man and he ended up being one of his best employees ever. So that was a very, very good lesson to learn. Because I think that if you are having people working for you, whether they are contractors, whether they are on staff however they are, or whether they’re just co workers in a job where you, yourself are an employee, it’s always good to keep good relations to be kind to other people. And having worked in the media. Some people get pretty high up, they get famous and then somehow they fall and they go down and you can find that the people you messed with on your way up and weren’t very nice to you may need them on your way down. So I think that it’s a very, very good policy to be kind and compassionate to the people that you’re working with whatever work you do. That was a great lesson that I got from my father. So on there, after I had the business with my husband, then we had some marital difficulties when he had an affair with another woman that I found out about. And that put a little bit of a crimp in our relationship, to say the least. And then shortly after that, maybe 18 months or so after that, I came down with a second bout of breast cancer. So those two items were a real kick in the pants for me to look at my life and to think, Well, you know, life is short. How do I want to live the rest of my life in a way that is meaningful and fulfilling? And I had already started getting backing into writing, which is one of my great loves, and began to write the adulterous wife book. After finishing that I thought, wow, I don’t really have anything else to say. But then when I got the cancer,

I had plenty more to say.

So that’s really been my journey and I have some classes in the offing, I would quite like to get back to radio and do a podcast of my own. I think that’s something that would bring me an awful lot of joy. But at the moment, I’m a journalist I write for Huffington Post. These days, journalism is not as renewer at an activity as it used to be in the days when I was working for the BBC, but it’s it’s an activity I enjoy very much indeed.

What is one of the humors that you personally found out of your journey with breast cancer? Well,

first of all, I have to preface this with the fact that I was I was lucky I had an easier ride then quite a lot of other people I came across I’m still here standing talking to you. I’m okay and tell I’m not unlike most people. But I didn’t. I did a lot of alternative work. alternative therapies along with the standard cat poison burn, routine of surgery, chemo radiation. And I ended up feeling quite good compared to some of the other people I was I had seen. So it is harder, the worse you feel, obviously, the harder it is to keep a positive attitude. But I made sure for example, when I was going through cancer, I was looking at comedy films. I avoided anything that was depressing. I didn’t want to go into somebody invited me to go and see wild with Witherspoon. She did this really good movie called Wild. And it’s about her recovery from depression. And I thought, No, I don’t think that’s what I want to go and see when I’m going through cancer. I want to see things that are uplifting and humorous. I don’t want to hear the bad news. I stopped listening to the news on the radio, and I was a news hound having been a BBC journalist. All those things helped to elevate my attitude. I made sure I was spending time with good friends. I cultivated a good strong circle of friends. And those kinds of things bring more life love and humor into your life, I found that I would look at things and that were going on in the cancer clinic and think of all kinds of bizarre, humorous sides to them. Things as bizarre as I had been reading an article waiting for my radiation, my first radiation therapy in the I can’t remember what magazine it was, but it was about the last hanging in Britain, okay, a bit dreary. And they would put this striped clothing on on the condemned man, which was blue, blue and white striped. And so I go in to have my radiation session, and the gowns are blue and white striped. I thought, oh my god. You know, so I noticed those kinds of things and it was more like gallows humor. I kept on coming across things. That was so bizarre and I’ve said that I’m not a great dog lover, for instance. And so bless them in the in the cancer clinic I went to they would have these therapy drop dogs to come and cheer people up. And of course, I would sort of grumpy. I don’t want this dog sniffing at my bag or sniffing at my crotch and I’d be all grumpy and, and sort of the sort of nasty grumpy Brit in the corner. But I’d see how everybody else in the room was brightening up at this dog coming in and sort of cheering them up and they’d all be petting the dog. So I mean, these would be these would be things that would make me laugh, and I think oh my god, I’m such a grumpy old cat. But I think if you can see humor in things, it really takes you out of feeling of the possibility of feeling depressed. That’s that’s my feeling.

Oh, definitely. You know, you’ve heard my story before about how our water was shut off because we didn’t have money to pay for it. And on that day, it had snowed. So my husband Oh my God. backyard. My boys. They’re older, he sent them out to the backyard to pee. And he told them bring in a bucket of snow, clean snow and put it in the toilet so that mom can use it.

CJ Grace: Oh my god, you have to do that. I mean, and now you have a great story to tell. It may have been tough at the time. But now you can see the humor in in all of those things that have gone on. And I should mention one more thing about humor.

CJ Grace: In both of my books. I have a lot of cartoons. And they also show ludicrous situations, both in terms of dealing with infidelity. And in terms of dealing with cancer that would make somebody laugh. For example, I have one on radiation therapy. And I came up with this cartoon because I had asked the person doing radiation on me what what is this machine? How is this stuff? What is the right kind of radiation that you’re putting into me and they use a linear accelerator. With photon rays, and I thought, well, that reminds me of Star Trek because it’s a photon ray gun that they use in Star Trek. So I came up with this cartoon of this woman being attacked by a space alien with a photon ray gun that hits her in the breast. And then the caption is radiation therapy. Because that’s in fact, what’s happening. It’s almost like you’re going through a Star Trek attack when you have radiation.

CJ Grace: So I’ve found all these ways of finding humor in my circumstances in particular, in particularly in the more grim circumstances just like you did with with peeing in the snow and was trying to use clean snow to flush your flush your toilet with when you’re when your water was cut off. You got you got to do that. And the people that are able to do that are the ones that end up being happier and more productive in life and more fulfilled, because I think the bottom line, Kim is that happiness is inside your head. It’s not outside, whatever happens, good or bad. Your reaction to that is what will determine whether you are a happy person or a depressed person. And so that’s the most important thing to work on. A lot of people think it’s because they haven’t got enough money or they haven’t met the right guy, or you know, they don’t have the right car or they haven’t got a nice house to live in. Well, all these things are really functions of what’s in your head and how you see life in general. And whether you see yourself as, say, a victim or somebody who is completing in their own right and who can just go for what they want, what you want, and who can just roll with the punches when things don’t necessarily always go your way, which they won’t. That’s life.

Oh, absolutely. Do you follow Brendon Burchard at all?

CJ Grace: No, I don’t. I’ve read a number of books that I found very, very hard. So, for promoting happiness, some of those I mentioned in the free PDF that I have available on my website, and my website is adultererswife.com and I’ve put together a free PDF. It’s like a mini ebook based on material that’s in the Adulterer’s Wife book I wrote. It’s called Overcoming Infidelity: Tools to Tame the Emotional Rollercoaster. And in there, I’ve got some recommended reading of books that I think are very, very good in terms of how to reprogram your brain to be happier so that you focus on the happy things in life and don’t dwell on the things that will make you depressed.

CJ Grace: So the books I recommend are things like for example, Arianna Huffington, her book, Thrive, and Hardwiring Happiness by Rick Hansen. And then another one which I thought was excellent was Mindsight by Daniel Siegel, I think is his name. I’ve got these all in my free PDF, but they have some very, very interesting and simple tools to really learn how to rewire your brain so that the happiness sticks and the stuff that isn’t so important whether it is less good doesn’t stick.

CJ Grace: I’ll give you the example of how things work in life. Normally, when you have you can have a politician that’s done fantastic things all their life. And then one bad thing happens. And all people think about is that one thing I think maybe Eliot Spitzer, for example, is an example of that. He did some fantastic things in terms of clamping down on people in Wall Street who were really let’s say, behaving badly. And he was brought down by the cool girl scandal. I don’t know if you remember that story. or not, but that’s really all people think about with him. He was at that point Governor of New York, and he had to resign. To my mind, I would think about all the things he did for citizens in general prior to that as being much more important than the fact that he was caught with a core goal. So those are the things that’s the problem, the bad stuff tends to stick and the good stuff it tends to be tends to flow away. So one of the quotes that I could give you from hardwiring happiness by Rick Hanson, he says that negative experiences are like Velcro. And positive experiences are like Teflon because your brain is wired that way for survival. If you put your finger on the stove, you immediately know it goes straight into long term memory you do not put a finger on a stove you do not burn your finger once you know Once bitten twice shy, is the is the proverb that goes with that. But there are so many, you know, nice experiences that you have in the day, but they don’t really stick unless you make an effort to let those things sink in beautiful sunset smile of your children, you know, a lovely meal. You know your pet on your lap and you’re petting your cat or whatever it is, these things are lovely experiences that in some ways we take for granted. But one bad thing happens you have a phone call from somebody who’s angry with you. And that sort of sticks. And you forget about all the good stuff that happens. So it’s something you can do in your life. If you do if you work at it, you can actually work at getting the positive experiences to stick and take over the weeds of all this negative stuff that turn around in your brain that you really don’t need.

Kim Sutton: Brendon Burchard talks about how when he was a child, he his parents actually had their the furnace broke at their house and oh my god, and Brendon Burchard is a very, very successful man, but his parents always struggled. I think he said that his parents never made more than $40,000 a year combined. So rather than getting all down about it, they actually made a game out of it.

Kim Sutton: They brought the camping equipment like the tent, and the sleeping bags into the living room. And then for the couple weeks until the next pay day, when they could get the furnace fixed. They didn’t even tell the kids why they were doing it. They just made a game out of it. They brought them into the living room, and they all kept in the kids never had any idea until they were older why that had actually happened. They had no idea there was struggle, because their parents had turned it around into a game and it turned it into something that later on in life, they could actually laugh about.

CJ Grace: Wow, what an amazing set of parents who have been born with.

Kim Sutton: Oh, absolutely.

CJ Grace: And looking at any of our life circumstances is the same thing like exactly, I mean, you found the ability to laugh at the the blue and the white striped gowns, and it’s a matter of mindset and how we look at anything.

Well, you could just imagine just going to a party, you go to a party, and you’ve just had an argument with your partner, you haven’t been doing very well at work. And there you are at this party, you’re already in a grumpy mood, you’re not going to particularly enjoy it.

CJ Grace: Somebody else can come there and they’re in a good mood, they’re upbeat, they just maybe got a great job that they’ve been trying to get for a while, who’s going to have a better experience at that party? Pretty obvious. And each person goes in with their own mindset. And that colors, how they see that it doesn’t just color their how they see the world. It colors how the world sees them, and how people outside treat them because people react to you the way you react to them. And it’s a circle, and it’s a vicious cycle if you are in the negative mode, but it’s a very positive cycle if you’re in the positive mode. Now, the trick is to get into that positive mode. It’s easier said than done, but it’s well worth trying to do that.

Kim Sutton: Oh, absolutely. I mean, take a look at what Any of us sleeps in by accident on any given morning, we can either and pardon my mouth listeners, you know, I don’t cuss very often, but you can either say, Oh shit, you know, and let it ruin your whole day. Or you can be like, Oh, I needed that sleep. Thank goodness, though. Let’s do our best to keep a positive spirit and keep on going.

CJ Grace: Yeah, absolutely. That’s just just it. And it’s interesting that Arianna Huffington in thrive and I have to say I’m biased towards Arianna because she she liked my book enough that when I gave her a copy, she invited me to be a contributor on Huffington Post. So thank you very much, Arianna. That was great. But anyway, in her book thrive, which I would recommend to anybody to read, she has three things that are important to maintain well being one of them is sleep.

CJ Grace: And you mentioned that sleeping late well sleeping at least half an hour or more a day. For example, either sleeping longer going to bed earlier, perhaps a nap. That’s number one.

Number two, move your body. Because so many people, they just sit in front of a computer or they’re sitting working or they’re in front of the television, they don’t even go outside, move your body, preferably outside, that’s going to do wonders for your mood. It doesn’t matter what kind of exercise you do walking, dancing to your favorite movies, music, anything like that. Yoga, whatever you do, good for your morale.

CJ Grace: And then the third thing is have some kind of meditation practice maybe 10 minutes and it doesn’t have to be anything complicated. You can just sit on your bottom and watch your breathing. Slow. Try and be relaxed and just watch your breathing going in and out and in and out. And try not to hold your breath at any point while you’re watching your breathing. Just that those three things can incredibly supercharge your mood and your well being and your health. So it’s about stepping back and taking a bit of time and serving yourself as much as everybody else around you.

Kim Sutton: So how much sleep Would you say that you get on average?

CJ Grace: I do try to get at least seven. Do I do that all the time, but I Arianna Huffington in her second in the other book, she wrote about sleep, which was the sleep revolution. That’s another good book says that a minimum of seven is recommended. And eight is better. But you can get part of it in a nap in the daytime if you ever have time for that, especially with kids. But that’s really what you should be aiming for seven is about the minimum and I do try to get seven. Do I sleep well through the night sometimes? Yes, sometimes. No, that’s that’s another story. But the book sleep revolution by Arianna Huffington does have a lot of techniques to improve that as well. Not just getting off to sleep but also staying asleep. There’s there’s a Issue major issues that a lot of people have.

Oh, yeah. And I had that issue myself. I think it’s episode number five listeners you can find out at KIM SUTTON comm forward slash p p 005. It was actually why I’d rather that you sleep than Listen to me because I went through. I did this in two different occasions in my life where I was only sleeping two to three hours a night, consistently for for a couple years on both times that I did this and both times, it led me into serious anxiety and depression.

Absolutely, because and for example, in terms of driving, driving, when you haven’t had enough sleep when you’re sleep deprived, is at least as bad as driving drunk driving under the air. I mean, it’s so it’s it’s a huge thing. Sleep deprivation is a major problem in our culture. And there is also this sort of macro thing of people going on about how well they can do without having much sleep. A lot of politicians do that and you know in their campaigns and This and they’re expected as soon as they get off the plane, whatever time zone they’re in, they’re expected to go straight into meetings and be really, really focused. No people need sleep, and especially if you’re going through different time zones, if you don’t give yourself time to, to rest and recover. You’re just shortening your lifespan. And as you said, creating depression and all kinds of health problems.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I found that what should be a two hour tasks takes eight hours. Absolutely. If I flip the to the eight, or the eight to two for sleeping. Yeah. And I’m not saying either. I don’t get seven hours of sleep every night. But what I have really been trying to do and I’m not perfect on this, either is taking myself away from screens all screens an hour before bed. That’s right. Yeah, my quality of sleep is just tremendously improved.

CJ Grace: Arianna Huffington, In her book, Sleep Revolution, also says that if you have a two hour gap between screen time and going to bed that’s going to improve your sleep dramatically. She recommends not having your iPads in your bedroom, not having your cell phone, just keep it or if you want to read, don’t read from your iPad. Read from a paper book, not a book on a screen because there’s something about the blue light and the stimulation and the fact that you know, you’ve got your Facebook stuff popping in, you’ve got your emails popping in all of that. It just stops your mind being able to get into the sleep mode. It’s just over over overstimulated.

CJ Grace: So you’re so right there. Two hours is quite tough to do. But actually two hours is a good gap to have between ending your screen time and actually going to bed.

Yeah, I’m not sure I’m ready to take it from one to two yet, but

one hour is good. One hour is definitely good. So

but that’s been an amazing journey for myself, actually, in the last couple years, just what you said about reading from physical books, and I will get inquiries from publishers and publicists who are looking to get their authors on the show. And they want to know where they can send the copy after. After I say yes. And I always turn down the copy. If they want me to read my book before their guests is on the show. It needs to be a physical copy, because the only time so yes, authors, I accept submissions. But the only time that I have to read on a regular basis is in the hour before bed, and I’m not going to do it on a screen. And I encourage CJ and I encourage you all not to do it either. Get away from the screens.

Give yourself that break. And I have to say on a related topic, my book adulterous wife how to thrive whether you stay or not, is available both in Kindle and in print format through Amazon. But the Kindle version is so much uglier. Even in a fairly simple book like mine, there’s so much of the formatting the beautiful formatting on a page, your page header, all the nice ways you can have a border around a cartoon image Since and you know having your grayscale image behind your chapter header, all of that kind of stuff you can’t really do in Kindle Kindle is a very boring, dreary format with just page flow. And you you just see text down the page. It’s not a very pretty way of reading. I really don’t don’t even like the look of a Kindle book compared to the look of a print book.

Maybe I’m a dinosaur, but

I think there’s no comparison.

It’s very cold. What are you reading right now, CJ,

I have been reading for my second book that I’m working on hotel chemo, hotel chemo, learning to laugh through breast cancer and infidelity. And my final chapter there is resting in peace. And it’s about planning your funeral and wills and all this kind of thing. And I’ve read a number of books by she wrote bunk, and she’s also written a book called stiff and I would have to look it up in my Yes, but it’s she’s a brilliant writer, and she’s got a great sense of humor. So there’s a book called stiff, which is really about The Secret Life of cadavers of what happens to corpses. It sounds very, very dark and dreary. But it’s actually a fascinating book. And I was reading that to get material for that final chapter. Another book I recently read for that chapter was Jessica midfields, American way of death, which was a fascinating and also sarcastic and scathing exposition of the American funeral industry. Because one of the things that I wrote about in that chapter was planning your funeral. And for me, I think I just like direct cremation. It was good enough for my cat. I think it’s good enough for me. So and it’s a lot cheaper to so I read about all these, you know, bizarre things that were happening in the funeral industry and in Britain. For example, we don’t Go for embalming and all that kind of stuff. It’s an open casket, we just sort of have a closed pine box almost and put it in the earth. And that’s it. So it’s I come from a slightly different culture. But anyway, I found a lot of humor in that subject, even though one would think that there isn’t much there. So a lot of the books I do read are connected with with what I’m writing about the book I just finished was hardwiring happiness by Rick Hanson, which I just mentioned. And I’d heard about that, because Arianna Huffington mentions it in her thrive book. So I tend to read more nonfiction than fiction. And usually they are books that are connected to the subjects that that I write in adulterous wife, I have a very, very long Bibliography because I read a lot of books. And every time I read books, they end up looking like Tibetan temples because I put in so many of those colored tags in there. They look like these Tibetan

prayer flags, because every time I read anything, I think, oh, that’s

really interesting. I should mention that in my book, so I’ve always got tons of stuff to put in. That’s really, because I was a BBC journalist with a background in doing a lot of research for the stories that I covered. That’s really how I write and how I like to get ideas and inspirations for the subjects I write about.

CJ, what legacy Do you want to leave?

I would like to leave the legacy that you really can turn adversity into opportunity. If everything in life was hunky dory, I don’t think you’d bother to make positive change. So when life throws you curveballs, you can either be crushed by them, or you can be raised up by them. You just have to not give up and not get into that kind of victim mentality. If you say to yourself, I will not be a victim. This will pass I’m going to use this to make my life better, not worse than it was before. That is the legacy I’d like to leave. It’s very easy to give up to get depressed. That classic picture of the trouble depressed woman eating from a tub of ice cream sitting in bed watching television as a way to cope with heartbreak or sadness or whatever. No, that is not the way to cope with it. The way to cope with it is to get off your butt and go for what you want to do. Life is short, make it count. Where can listeners find you online? My website is adulterous. wife.com and I also write for Huffington Post. So if you google CJ grace Huffington Post, you’ll find my Huffington Post articles. And if you go online, to my website, adulterous wife.com you’ll also be able to get a free gift. It’s a mini ebook called overcoming infidelity tools to tame the emotional rollercoaster, it that has an excerpt from my book, adulterous wife how to thrive whether you stay or not. And if you’d like that book that is available on Amazon in print and Kindle format,

awesome and listeners again, all the resources books, everything that we’ve talked about CJ s website URL and her books as well will be on the show notes page which you can find at that KIM sutton.com. forward slash p p 182. CJ, thank you so much for joining us here today. I’ve enjoyed every moment of it. And you’ve provided so much insight Do you have a last piece of parting advice or a golden nugget that you could share with listeners?

CJ Grace: Kim, I want to thank you very much for having me on your show. I really enjoyed talking to you. The most important thing and the hardest thing that I find to do but maybe the most important thing, is to try and find balance in your life. You have to have balance between getting enough time to rest and relax and being productive and prioritizing well, to get what you want done in life, but without the other side without the rest and relaxation side. The Productivity The creative side won’t be as good. So balance is very, very important.