PP 298: Knowing Your “Needs” with Lisa Avery

Kim Sutton: Welcome back to another episode of Positive Productivity. I am so happy that you are here today, and I am so excited about today’s guest, Lisa Avery. Lisa is a positive psychologist from Work his Vocation. And we were already on a roll in our pre-chat, so I just said to Lisa, I gotta push start recording, or else, we’re gonna put all the good stuff in the beginning. 

So anyway, welcome, Lisa. I am so happy that you’re here. I know we’re gonna have a great time chatting.

Lisa Avery: Hello, thank you, Kim. It’s really great to be here. Thanks so much for having me. Absolutely. Thank you.

Kim Sutton: Oh, you’re so welcome. And you can tell I’m excited because I’m talking it like three times speed.

Lisa Avery: I think you’re just mimicking me Kim. I think that’s probably my fault.

Kim Sutton: That’s definitely possible. At least I want you to give your introduction like a fuller introduction. But I do have to share before that you do, listeners, Lisa may be launching a podcast in a few months. It’s still questionable, but Lisa, I’ve been listening to podcasts myself at two times speed, and I’ve noticed that since I’ve started doing that, that I’ve started talking fast.

Lisa Avery: Wow. My goodness, Well, I certainly don’t need to do that myself because I find it very hard to contain my passion. So I think I will not be doing the same in the very near future because that could be very dangerous.

Kim Sutton: Oh, my gosh, yeah. We would have to have people listening to it at half speed.

Lisa Avery: Because I kind of feel like my heart starts racing, it starts beating at the same kind of speed at which I’m talking. So I’m just physiologically getting very excited too. So I mean, wait, but over an extended period of time, I think I have to calm down just a little bit.

Kim Sutton: Yeah. I had to take a deep breath here because this is something that I didn’t need to share in the podcast. But when I start getting really excited about my work, oh, my gosh, I can’t admit it, or I can’t believe I’m admitting this, I will start drooling about my work. I mean, it’s not literally coming out of my mouth. But like, I’m salivating thinking about how excited I am about the work that I’m doing. I didn’t even know that was possible.

Lisa Avery: My goodness, I’ve never heard that. But I think that is the most amazing admission ever, because that is such a testament to the kind of work you do, and the kind of person you are, and the way that you managed to entwine the two beautifully. And I think anybody who works with you is very privileged. So I think that’s an amazing thing to admit.

Kim Sutton: It’s so much better than sitting here with our eyes just like crossing and rolling into the back of our head because we’re just so unenthused. But oh, my gosh, I realize we’re like three minutes in and I haven’t even given you the opportunity to properly introduce yourself yet.

Lisa Avery: Okay, that’s all right. As you said earlier, I’m a Positive Psychologist and a Coach. I also work with a positive psychology program called Growing With Gratitude. And that is a program that we take into primary schools, which takes a very proactive approach to mental health. So that’s one thing that I’m working on. And then in terms of the positive psychology and the coaching, I work with people around finding or creating their vocation. So finding or creating work which is deeply meaningful, which entwines strengths, talents, passions, and really helps a person serve both themselves and the world with their unique gift. So that’s where I’m at right now, Kim.

Kim Sutton: I just want to back up a second. [inaudible] said you’re growing with gratitude inside of elementary schools?

Lisa Avery: Absolutely. Yes.

Kim Sutton: Oh, my gosh, I absolutely love that. And especially with my five, I hear more about their gripes. Actually, now that I’m thinking about, well, okay, I’m thinking about my three year old twins and my four year old, so that’s not quite elementary school yet, but I do hear more about their gripes, the kid kindled just ran out of battery and I don’t like this dinner. No, why aren’t you reading me a book yet? Where’s the gratitude? And even with my teenagers too. Okay, stop complaining. I started this with my own kids tonight. Before you complain, give me your gratitude.

Lisa Avery: Absolutely. Gratitude is highly, highly correlated to well being. It’s been proven time and time again. Our focus is on gratitude, and kindness, empathy, character strengths, resilience, and happiness. We look at it as a very holistic approach to mental, physical and emotional well being. And yeah, absolutely. This is something that even as a family, you could start to create as a habit. We have the good old gratitude journal, three good things a day, that kind of thing. And it’s never too young for a person to start to look for the good thing because all this thing about the negativity bias came, our brain is wired to notice a negative because that’s how we’ve evolved and survived as a species. Out there in the jungle, we had to be noticing the lion running towards us and ready to eat us, rather than the beautiful flowers, and trees, and fruit. We have evolved to notice the negative, and even from a very young age is very easy to see. So I think happiness really is a habit that we can train through things like gratitude, kindness, empathy, etc, etc. So I think, yeah, even as a family, you could begin to implement these kinds of habits, and really reap the rewards very quickly.

Kim Sutton: Lisa, I noticed something in the last couple years, even about myself that every time I was getting a compliment, I would sort of shoo shoo it.

Lisa Avery: Absolutely, absolutely.

Kim Sutton: You know that that sure is really nice. I really like that. And then it would be like, oh, this whole thing, or something like that. And I didn’t realize until an earlier conversation on the podcast, that that was actually not doing, well, wasn’t doing me any good, but also wasn’t doing anybody or the person who was giving me the compliment in good either. we really needed to start appreciating compliments, not only for me, but for everybody else as well.

Lisa Avery: Absolutely. Really mindfully savoring that compliment, that moment, that kindness coming from another person, I think, really becoming aware of that is really a beautiful moment of connection. This is social glue. We are social beings. As human beings, we’re very social, and we’re wired for connection. And those micro moments of love and connection, I think, are really beautiful, and really give us that boost on a daily basis. So as you say, the ability to really savor that moment and feel comfortable in hearing kind words about yourself. Because it’s interesting, you say Kim, I often do an exercise with people which is a strength exercise. So I get my clients or people I need to identify their innate character strengths. And there’s a wonderful side, I don’t know whether you’re aware that at the University of Pennsylvania website, you can take the Via V-I-A, Strength Survey Inventory. And it comes back with a list with a ranking of your character strengths. And actually watching a person, seeing a person begin to learn, begin to understand and really take on board what they’re good at, at’s a really beautiful thing because people are not used to recognizing and acknowledging the good about themselves.

Kim Sutton: Oh, yeah, you’re absolutely right there. How did you get into this, Lisa?

Lisa Avery: Now, this is a story, as Steve Jobs said, it’s joining the dots backwards. Now, looking back, it’s very easy for me to see how this all came around. But at the time, I really wasn’t so very sure. So my original degree was in languages. And that meant that I came to Spain, having moved from England because I’m originally from the UK. I came to Spain not really sure what I wanted to do with my life after graduation. And I started to teach at various companies. And one of the companies that I had the good fortune of stumbling across was the School of psychologists. And at that time, they were organizing the International Congress for coaching psychology. And very quickly, I became involved in that with the translation, the interpretation. And it was one of those moments came when I thought, oh, my goodness, shouldn’t this have been my life? This is everything I love, everything I’m passionate about. Until that point it sailed along. There was nothing that I really particularly wanted. And this was the first time ever, when who I was really came together for me. It was the moment that I thought, yeah, this should be my life. Is it too late? So that was about seven years ago now. 

Shortly afterwards, I found a master, Master’s in coaching psychology and positive psychology. And I finished that Master’s last year. And yeah, and since then, I’ve been doing some coaching, a few workshops, and little by little building up my business. So that’s a story. For me, it was a question of, I’d always been extremely interested in psychology, but having been better at languages and communication, I was really encouraged to go in that direction which is a really good sort of typical example of a person looking for the extrinsic, the external motivation, the opinions of others, and not really tapping into themselves. For me, Kim, it took me a very long time to strip away the external and really access my authenticity. And now, I feel extremely aligned with who I am, and what I do, and what I’m about. And that’s why I feel so incredibly passionate about empowering people to do the same thing. Because from this place, you feel on fire.

Kim Sutton: So that brings them a really good point. I mean, I’ve looked back at my life and I’ve wondered if I would have done things differently. I’ve brought this up on the podcast before, and I don’t think there’s been struggles, there’s been a lot of learning, but I wouldn’t be where I am today if I hadn’t gone through any of that. How do you feel about that? If you could go back, would you do it differently? Or do you think you went through what you went through to be where you are today?

Lisa Avery: Absolutely. Because so much of what I’m about now, helping people really consolidate their identity, really tap into their authenticity, really become very self confident, so much of that is because it took me so long to reach the same place. So had I not been around so many corners before really coming to what I perceived to be a straight line, a straight road ahead, I wouldn’t have ever had that necessity, that urge to really help people who are in that same position that I was once did. I felt very disempowered growing up, I didn’t really believe in myself very much. And now that I do have that level of self confidence because I feel very aligned to who I am and what I’m about, I really feel that deep seated urge to help other people reach that level because it’s an amazing place to be. It’s very easy to say, looking back, I wish I could have done this and done that. But then again, I wouldn’t, as you say, be in the same place that I am today, and I wouldn’t change where I am. Absolutely not. I try to take the good from the past and really just get on with the future. 

Interestingly, kim, psychology points to the fact that we’re much more future driven and future motivated than people used to think. Psychology in the past, it used to look at people’s pasts, it used to really examine what had gone on to understand why the person was where they were at that present moment. But actually, recent studies have pointed to the fact that human beings, they’re far more likely to be thinking about the future than dwelling on the past. So for me, that’s a very empowering thought. It really all is about the future, and the incredible things that we can create by looking forward, not backwards.

Kim Sutton: That brings up an interesting point too. I mean, we’re looking so much at the future, and I do still think there’s a fair bit of dwelling on the past. But what about the present show, which really, how much of us actually spend time right here where we are?

Lisa Avery: That’s it. And yet, interestingly, studies from mindfulness show that we are at our happiest no matter what task we’re doing, we are at our very best when we’re focused on that task. So even if we’re washing the dishes, for example, we’re much better to be washing the dishes and being focused on washing the dishes than actually having our mind running backwards or forwards. So actually becoming very aware of the present moment is a very powerful thing. And it’s powerful as a human being to become very mindful too because this cycle isn’t between our thoughts, our emotions and our behavior. So for every thought we have, it leads to an emotion, a feeling and in our body. And for every emotion we have, it then leads to a certain way of behaving, and it goes round and round in a cycle. So by becoming very aware of our thoughts, what we’re thinking, what we’re feeling, what we’re doing at any given moment, it really gives us the power to intervene and change things about our lives.

Kim Sutton: What do you think is the biggest obstacle people face when it comes to figuring out their own identity versus what other people see as their identity and being their true authentic selves?

Lisa Avery: I think that’s a brilliant question. I think first and foremost, we’ve got to strip away the extrinsic. We grow up in a society, in a family, where we’re often told what we should do and what we should become. And very many times this happens during childhood when we’re not even aware of how much we’re internalizing from the external world. So I think very often, people come to me as adults, and I’m sure to you too, that they have these ideas that really aren’t their own. Oftentimes, they’re leading lives that they thought were the lives they wanted. But actually, they were the lives to a precondition by external, by the extrinsic. So for me, first of all, it’s a question not of going out into the world and adding on to what we are. If not coming back to ourselves, and gradually layer by layer stripping away that which doesn’t serve us anymore. And that could be thoughts, that could be opinions, that could be ways of speaking to ourselves. 

So very often, the internal voice, the voice inside our mind, it’s cruel, it’s critical. And very often, what we’re saying to ourselves are things that we’ve heard growing up as children and young people. I think, first of all, it’s really getting back to who you are. I mean, a brilliant way to do that? As we spoke about earlier would be to take the strength inventory, would be to look at your values what’s very important to you, it will be to look at times when you’re in moments of flow, when time actually seems to stand still because you’re so absorbed in the kind of activities that you’re doing. So tapping into our strengths, our values, looking for moments of flow, really getting to find who we are when we’re at our very best. Because as we said earlier, people are very good at criticizing themselves, but they’re not very good at looking when we’re at our best at how we do things. So I think getting to that point and really to acknowledge who we are at our very best is the starting point.

Kim Sutton: Oh, absolutely. I found that even with my littles, I’ve had to learn to start biting my tongue. I’ll give you an example with my three year old and four year old daughters this morning. We’ve got snow on the ground, and they wanted to dress themselves, they don’t want any input from me on what they’re gonna wear. The outfits that they both chose were nothing that I would have put on myself. I mean, one of them is wearing a pair of sweatpants under this sequin skirt with a shirt that is completely clashing. The other one got jealous that her sister was wearing a black shirt, or a shirt that had black on it, and she wanted black too, but she doesn’t have anything. So I happened to notice out of the corner that I had a black tank top. I mean, this is for me. Okay, a black tank top with sequence. I was like, huh, let’s go grab that. And she’s like, why? I was like, just go get it. I was like, do you want to wear this today? Black tank top that’s like 18 size, too big. But over her shirt and over her pants [inaudible]. You know what? I’m gonna let them do their thing. They wanted to dress themselves, and I’m just gonna keep my mouth shut today. My husband and I just looked at each other through our eyes. But if I start criticizing them, if I say anything about their clothes, it’s just going to make them constantly doubt themselves. And I don’t want them to do that. I want them to enjoy this piece of wearing whatever they want. Because unfortunately, the teenage years will be here way too soon. And then it’s not going to be mom’s eyes and her mom’s eyebrow that’s getting raised, but it’s going to be all the girls at school.

Lisa Avery: Oh, that is a beautiful story, Kim. That is beautiful. It points to something that I think is critical. Human beings have three needs to feel really motivated. They need to feel autonomous, so free to make their own choices. They need to feel competent in what they do. And they need to feel related, they need to feel connected to other people so they need to feel they belong in some way. And I think what you’re describing there is a perfect example of your daughter really craving that autonomy, really wanting to be celebrated as an individual in her style. Yet at the same time, that wanting to wear black too, that’s kind of tapping into the relatedness, really needing to feel you belong at the same time. And I think as a human being, we often have this friction, this kind of tension between wanting to stand out and be celebrated for who we are as individuals, yet wanting to fit into. And I think often it’s kind of like what we were talking about earlier, when people come to coaching with all of this tension. Often, this is a problem. The extrinsic is still there in the sense that they’re still hearing what society tells them they should be doing. Yet, there’s this part of them that’s rising up from the inside and really waiting to burst out. And that is their autonomy, that is what makes them different. And it’s that friction should it stay in or should it come out?

Kim Sutton: Oh, my gosh, you just brought up, and we talked about this a little bit in the pre-chat, what society is telling us that we should do. I’ve been facing this in my own business, what I should do versus what I want to do. I do realize, listeners, that we all face that struggle of having to bring income to pay for our expenses, pay for food, pay for our housing and everything. But there may come that time where what you’re doing to make money isn’t what’s leading you up inside.

Lisa Avery: Absolutely.

Kim Sutton: And there’s going to be coaches that are telling you that you’ve got to do that, or there’s going to be, and I’m not going to say that there’s anything wrong with coaches who are telling you that you got to make money. Because it’s true, you have to make money. But I do believe at some point that you do need to follow your heart.

Lisa Avery: Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it’s really interesting, because for my Master in positive psychology and coaching psychology, my final research project was on what propels a person to pursue their vocation. So what psychological, emotional and physical factors push a person to really find, pursue or create work that is deeply meaningful to them. And very often, sadly, people tend to wait before really seeing this kind of work. And people tend to wait until something really bad happens, be a divorce, be at the death of a loved one, be an illness. But it was usually in extremely negative circumstances that a person finally found the necessity of courage, let’s say, to tap into who they are and what they’re about. But for me, it’s sad Kim, that people wait for that to happen. It’s great that they eventually get there, but it’s sad that they don’t start to take a more proactive stance towards that. Because I do believe that who you are, no matter who you are and what you’re about, you can find something that is personally meaningful to you. And what I also found was that work that is perceived to be a vocation is very meaningful to the individual, because it allows the individual to grow to become the best version of themselves. And that makes a person feel incredible. But what really, really makes the difference, the icing on the cake, so to speak, is when a person is able to transcend themselves. When a person is able to lose themselves in service to others, in service to the greater good, and that can be any kind of good. But until a person is able to lose themselves and lose that ego, they don’t feel that ultimate level of happiness, which is definitely out there.

Kim Sutton: Absolutely. I have a bone to know your thoughts about how long do you see it normally taking for people to find that. Because we go through elementary school, in high school, and a lot of us go to college because we think that that’s going to be what comes with getting our diploma. But I didn’t find myself until I was in my 30’s.

Lisa Avery: Absolutely.

Kim Sutton: And I have to say, I really didn’t find myself into. I just turned 39, listeners, I’m admitting my age. I would have to say that I really didn’t find myself until just a couple years ago. I really wanted to be doing–

Lisa Avery: Absolutely, absolutely.

Kim Sutton: And I almost feel like I’m really like playing with Legos.

Lisa Avery: Wow, I can really relate to what you’re saying, Kim, because I’m 37. So a similar age to yourself. And only in the last couple of years do I feel that I’m tapping into my authenticity too. And I think there are a couple of interesting points there to make. Now, the idea of setting goals, it’s okay. But what we have to realize in life is no matter what we achieve, were always going to look towards the next thing because there’s some concept in positive psychology called hedonic adaptation. And all that means is that no matter how good or bad the circumstances in life, we will always adapt, we will always get used to them, and we will always come back just about to our original level of well being. So no matter how good or bad, we’re always going to come back to a similar level of well being. So how that relates to goals is in the following way, no matter what goal you set out to achieve, once you’ve achieved the goal, sooner or later, you’re going to come back to the original point of well-being. So the idea is rather than pursuing goal after goal, what you should be pursuing instead is a continual sense of development, a continual sense of progression in every aspect of life. 

And I also think there’s something really useful to bear in mind, and this comes from the father of positive psychology, Martin Seligman. He thinks about happiness and well being in terms of an acronym which is PERMA. P for positive emotions, E for engagement, R for relationships, M for meaning, and A for achievement. So if you’re able to create those positive emotions, feel very engaged in the work you’re doing, really nurture your relationships, find a deep sense of meaning in what you’re about, and continually look to improve to achieve in every area of life, I think you’re gonna be a pretty fulfilled human being. But what you have to know is reaching your authenticity, finding what you’re about. It’s not a one time destination, because that doesn’t make people happy. What makes people really happy is that constant sense of evolution in every single aspect of life.

Kim Sutton: You just gave me a huge Aha, because PERMA basically encompasses my whole podcast for me.

Lisa Avery: Wow, that’s incredible.

Kim Sutton: I mean, it gives positivity even if it wasn’t called Positive Productivity, even if it was something completely different, but it made me feel so happy. There you go.The relationships with people that I’m talking to you, that authenticity, bearing on here, the meaning and the, I feel like I’m forgetting?

Lisa Avery: The meaning, the accomplishment.

Kim Sutton: I covered authenticity, engagement. Accomplishment, I made it to 200, by the way listeners, you can find really everything that we’re talking about at thekimsutton.com/pp298. But Lisa, this is actually the 298.

Lisa Avery: Oh, my goodness, congratulations.

Kim Sutton: There’s an accomplishment. But PERMA, I found that, well, it also has to do with chronic idea disorder. When I’m really passionate about something, I tend to stick with it. I tend to stick with it straight through the stinking because I get so engrossed. That’s what it really is. I mean, just focus on that one. It’s like diving into the sea, never coming back out again because I’m just so in love with it.

Lisa Avery: Absolutely. And that really shows, it’s very evident in the way in which you work in your podcast. And I think, once you’ve worked in that way, and you’ve reached that level of authenticity, it’s very difficult to perceive any other kind of work. It’s interesting, Kim, because according to statistics, there are three ways of thinking about work, there are people who consider their work to be a job. So simply a means to an end, wait to get a paycheck at the end of the month. Then there are people who think about their work in terms of a career. So they’re really focused on the progression, the status, really going up and up with an organization. And then the third group of people, I think, would be people like yourself and like me. And these are people who see their work to be a vocation. So that work that is deeply meaningful to them and serves the world in some way. And study after study really points to the fact that perceiving your work to be a vocation really leads to a very deep sense of fulfillment. And I think that’s really good to know. I mean, there’s nothing wrong with seeing your work as a job or a career. But I think there’s always the opportunity, no matter what age you are to explore other potential avenues.

Kim Sutton: I will tell my kids that I have to get to work, specifically when I need them to get out the door in the morning to get to daycare, but I never say it’s a job. I find myself saying, I love what I do. And I have to share a mastermind that I formed and we’ve actually called ourselves, we’ve named the group The Unretirables.

Lisa Avery: I love that. Absolutely.

Kim Sutton: We know that we’re just going to love what we do. And even if we’re making millions, someday we all hoped for, we don’t see ourselves being able to retire because we’re so engrossed with what we’re doing, that is going to be in our blood.

Lisa Avery: Absolutely.

Kim Sutton: I want to go back to what you’re originally or what you were saying just a few minutes ago, though, about going back to our original wellness state.

Lisa Avery: Yeah. So just our sense of well being, our original sense of well being.

Kim Sutton: As we’re continually working on that, though, can our original state of well being be on the show? You know what I mean? Because I don’t want to go back to the state of wellbeing I was in 10 years ago, I don’t want to go back to where I was 20 years ago. But if every day I could get back to where I was, first thing out of the bed in the morning and everyday gets a little bit better. That would be my goal.

Lisa Avery: Absolutely, absolutely. Kim. Sorry, let me clarify a little bit then. According to science, when it comes to well being, 50% of our happiness comes from our genetics. I mean, that’s 50% that we can’t really do very much about. But what is really good and really empowering to know, 40% actually comes from our state of mind. So from the habits that we create, we can very proactively pursue gratitude, kindness, we can become more empathetic towards other human beings, and we can nurture our relationships. There’s so much that we can do within that 40%, which is in our control, and only 10% comes to circumstances. So 50% is controlled by genetics, 40% is completely within our control, and 10% is circumstances. So within that 40%, we have an immense power there to cultivate a positive mindset, to cultivate positive emotions. And what I was referring to earlier in terms of coming back, always coming back to a certain set point. Let’s say, is really that 50%, that genetic set point, yes, it’s there. But still, in a very positive sense, we do have 40% to play with, which I think is where we have to focus.

Kim Sutton: Oh, my God, that is so fascinating to me. I have not heard that before. I actually just shared on a recent episode, and I’ll put this in the show notes, listeners, about my own struggles that I’ve had with anxiety. I didn’t realize that anxiety is often genetic. It may very well just be part of our genetics, and we can’t do anything about it. Maybe I just wasn’t made aware that it was in my family growing up. But as I’ve gotten older, I’ve had experienced, a lot of experience with anxiety myself. But you’re totally right. So there’s that 50%, but then it’s what we can do beyond that. And those are those days that I just want to end, I know this is a Positive Productivity Podcast listeners night, and 98 to 99% of the time, like you hear me here, except for when my kids are driving me crazy. But there are those days where I’ve just wanted to get back into bed.

Lisa Avery: Yep. Yeah, absolutely.

Kim Sutton: My choice. Or I can go take a shower, and go get a coffee somewhere, you can go for a walk, and work on getting out. I can put on my favorite song of the moment that I know will lift my spirits.

Lisa Avery: Absolutely, absolute. Kim, you just touched on something really, really important. And probably my biggest and most empowering takeaway from positive psychology was that negative emotions serve a very normal part and healthy part of any life. And what the key is, and I found this to be really helpful, because like yourself, sometimes I have a really crappy day. Where is that one time, I would have tried to hide that. I would have tried to conceal that. What I have learned from studying positive psychology is that if we’re able to articulate and express very clearly and concisely, the emotion we’re feeling at any given moment, it begins to lose its control over us, it begins to dissipate much, much, much more quickly. Whereas, if we repress it, there comes a moment when we explode with anger with sadness. So it’s much healthier to let the negative emotion and articulate it, express it clearly, and see how it diffuses so much more quickly.

Kim Sutton: Oh, yeah, that’s so good. My husband has learned that he needs to just let me sit if there’s stuff going on in the house, because I’m one that will, I have learned through growing up, but also as an adult that I don’t just say what I’m thinking at any point. I’m not saying that it never happens. Yes, at all. But I’ve learned for the most part how to control that. And he’ll say, actually, I don’t think I’ve heard him say this as much lately, are you going to say anything? And when he says that, most of the time I’m like, no, I need to think about what you’re thinking, and then I will come back to you. But if I do just let it stay inside? Oh, my gosh, that’s not good.

Lisa Avery: Not at all. Not at all. And that’s why journaling, so creating a bit of a journal habit can be very, very useful for people. There are a couple of studies which really support this. So for example, if you’ve been through a negative experience in life that you don’t really feel you’ve gotten over yet, it can be a really good thing to do just take your journal for sort of four consecutive nights, 20 minutes each night and write about that event no matter how awful it was. And the thing is, describe it as clearly and vividly as possible. Now, studies show that for the first few hours afterwards, you will feel worse. But actually, one week later after really getting this trauma, this bad experience out, your immune system is boosted and you feel happier, you feel lighter, you feel more energized. So I think there’s a real merit to getting this out whether that’s with words, speaking to someone, or whether that’s by writing. But I think it’s really important for people to know that any kind of emotion that is sitting in the body for a long period of time is probably going to have some effect.

Kim Sutton: Lisa, do you think that forgiveness for past wrongdoings that other people have possibly done, do you think that’s a must? Or do you think it’s just a recommendation?

Lisa Avery: I think to some degree, it’s a must. I must say, this is an area of life that I personally really struggle with, really, really struggle with, particularly in my own circumstances, because I haven’t necessarily expressed that anger to the perpetrators or to the people with whom I experienced a situation. Actually, there’s a recommendation, there’s a study from positive psychology, and it talks about actually writing a letter of forgiveness. Not necessarily sending it, I don’t think that’s always the best thing to do. Because sometimes, the person that you’re forgiving doesn’t actually realize they need to be forgiven. But for your own sense of well-being, if you are able to reconcile those feelings of anger, disappointment, then absolutely, because these are negative emotions which stay in the body. And as I say that they’re harmful, they’re not good for us. So if you’re able to get that out, if you’re able to liberate yourself from those kinds of negative emotions, I think that can only be a good thing. Well, I’m sure that’s a very positive thing to do. I’m really not necessarily the pattern speaking about forgiveness, because I would say that that is the thing that I personally struggle the most with.

Kim Sutton: Well, thank you for being so authentic about that, and so transparent. I mean, it’s awesome to hear. I went through years struggling with forgiveness and several things from the past, but I did realize that, and I can’t even tell what happened in my own life to be able to allow forgiveness to occur. But yeah, there was so much freedom. I just got finished reading The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks for the first time, I think I’m going to have to make a habit of reading it.

Lisa Avery: Wow. I’m taking note, The Big Leap.

Kim Sutton: Yes. It’s amazing. And one of the things that he talks about preventing us from reaching the next level is playing the blame game.

Lisa Avery: Yes.

Kim Sutton: We can blame our lack of progression or lack of success on any one circumstance. But in all actuality, it’s all on us.

Lisa Avery: Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Kim, I can’t tell you to what extent I agree with that, and it comes back to what we refer to in psychology as a locus of control. So recognizing that, as you say so eloquently, that you are ultimately the protagonist of your life, and the only one who is in control. And again, it really goes hand in hand with what we found about the fact, only 10% of happiness comes from our circumstances. So it’s not really about other people. It’s not about what they do, or what they have, or haven’t done to us. Absolutely. And it’s very empowering to know that by taking control of your life, you’re really empowering yourself. Okay, so you then take responsibility for your own happiness. But why would you want to delegate your happiness or well being to any other human being? That’s impossible. You are the only person who can create that in your own life. Absolutely as you say, in terms of forgiving people in overcoming the past, I think that’s our, at least in the very least reconciling ourselves with the past. Because I guess so often, these things I deny, these things are repressed. Or whilst that was repressing anything, there’s going to be a price to pay. 

There’s this exercise that I love, and what do you have to do? You have to take a piece of paper, a piece of A4 paper and write down your biggest grievance, so your biggest frustration, sense of anger, or sadness, or the person, for example, with whom you’re angry. And what you do is you write it down, and then you hold a piece of paper at arm’s length, and you notice how your arms begin to ache. So this is what happens when we repress something. Now, then you start to pull the piece of paper towards you. So bring it towards your chest, lower it and feel now the lightness. So you’re bringing this closer to you, and it’s not hurting in the same way. And I think that is a great exercise, and it really highlights the fact that keeping anything at arm’s distance, not acknowledging it is always going to have a more negative consequence to actually bringing it closer to us, expressing not repricing and really being able to move forward in life.

Kim Sutton: Oh, my gosh, Lisa, I’m thinking that you should put every profession exercise on YouTube or something, because I can see so many people who could benefit from that.

Lisa Avery: Wow. Thank you. I think it’s very simple but very powerful.

Kim Sutton: Yeah, yeah, exactly to both. I mean, Brendon Burchard has what he calls The Release Meditation Technique on YouTube. I don’t know if you’ve seen that. Listeners, you should definitely check it out. But it’s just a very easy meditation technique. I ignored meditation forever, because I thought it was too difficult. I thought I had to clear my mind, but this just helped me get past that. And sometimes, the easiest things, including talking are the easiest things for us to overlook.

Lisa Avery: Absolutely. These kinds of simple habits that we’re talking about, they’re very easy to ingrain into our lives on a daily basis. And however short and simple they are, over time, they really accumulate. And within that 40% of control we have, we can gradually really increase our well being. And the thing about positive emotions is, there’s a theory about positive emotions called broadened build. The idea being for every positive emotion we experience, it literally opens us up to more experience, more positive emotion. There’s actually this incredible study which shows that people after watching a comedy, for example, rather than a sad film, when given a picture to look at, they actually notice much more of a picture. So their peripheral vision actually increases. So that shows that even physically, we become more open when we’re experiencing positive emotions. The more positive emotions we experience, the more we begin to interact with our people, look for opportunities, and really not bring the best out of ourselves. Whereas negative emotions, they narrow our vision, they narrow our attention, because we have to react to that situation. So we need to be very focused, positive emotions open us up to the rest of the world. And so these are things that we can cultivate with gratitude, with empathy, with kindness in many different ways. In small but simple and powerful ways on a regular basis.

Kim Sutton: That is so huge. I’ve noticed that when a day starts bad, if I focus on the bed, the day keeps getting worse.

Lisa Avery: Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

Kim Sutton: But in the same way, just like what you were just saying with the comedy, you can see a lot more. Wow. And maybe it’s not that the day is getting any better. Listeners, I am so sorry if you hear a crash in just a moment. I have a cat that’s trying to find me. But I can totally see when we focus on the positive that it just keeps on getting better.

Lisa Avery: Absolutely.

Kim Sutton: Lisa, this has been totally enlightening, and I can see that I’m gonna have to have you back again because there’s so much more that we can discuss.

Lisa Avery: Oh, thank you. Absolutely. Kim. I feel like we’re just getting going, but it’s been amazing. Thank you so much.

Kim Sutton: Oh, you’re so welcome. Where can listeners find you online and connect with you?

Lisa Avery: Sure. Absolutely. So if they feel like asking me questions or finding out anything else, I will be happy to chat with anyone at www.workisvocation, all one word, workisvocation.com, and I would be really happy to have a chat with anybody.

Kim Sutton: Awesome. And listeners again, Lisa’s link, Work Is Vocation, will be in the show notes. So in case you’re out right now, you can go to thekimsutton.com/pp298. Thank you again, Lisa, so much. Do you have a parting piece of advice or a golden nugget that you can offer to listeners?

Lisa Avery: Of course, and I think it really comes to what we’ve been saying throughout the whole episode. But just to summarize, I would say Kim, the most important discovery that I’ve made is to really tap into your authenticity, to really find who you are, what you’re about, really strip away all the extrinsic, come to the core of who you are, find how those innate strengths, talents, passions, how they can be fused together to serve yourself and the rest of the world. And that to me is the most important piece of all.